Posted by: @dragonus

Now that combat revamp is "underway" is this thread meant to be a discussion between players and/or GMs about the direction that combat will be moving in? Where we can align on what "balance" is and understand the overall goal and how you guys will quantify success? Or is this more like us sharing some ideas, most of which we've already done before, and maybe it's relevant and maybe it's not? Right now it kinda just feels like Santa's wishlist where we'll ask for anything and everything and maybe we get it maybe we don't.

I guess what I'm wondering is I've already seen a post about how Pank & 2HA should be the new standard. I rather disagree, but maybe GMs do agree. But what would help to guide the best ideas would be to provide a general sense of what you're aiming to accomplish with "balance". Even ground rules like "We definitely won't be changing Stance bonuses, yada yada" (as an example) would be helpful to know.

Even something as simple as Avros openings. Most would say remove them altogether. I personally think "openings" should have varying % so maybe there is a world with regular openings (that more ranks would negate) that can turn the tide on a fight. But it really depends on what you guys see as "balance".

I think this really is the key. We have to understand what does "balance" mean from the staff perspective? That way we can better tailor or responses, ideas, and suggestions towards that end goal. A revamp generally has benchmarks in mind for what the outcome should be. So would the staff mind answering what their End-state is for all this? Even if it isn't set in stone, what is the vision you foresee for the overall process?

Are we trying to make weapons more in line for damage so that DPS overall is more equal? Are we trying to give weapon sets Pros and Cons? Meaning, Avros has its openings, Archery has its friendly fire. Are we looking at weapons without a glaring deficit and suggestions drawbacks for them? Are we discussing speed of weapons? or are we just looking at small, quality of life changes without an overhaul to the system?

So what are the left and right limits, as well as the goal, so we can properly aim our brainstorming towards that end-state?

I cannot speak on the combat balancing process but I believe the intention of this thread is to give players a place to discuss combat feedback and combat ideas that folks may have had or that they may have suggested in the past as this process is on going.

I believe the other part is for players to have a place to also discuss any inspiration for any thing else that is in the combat area of the game. On that note I'm sorry but I don't think we will be seeing three or four handed axes as a skill anytime soon!

Put footshot back on par with all other archery moves. Kinda dumb that I can shoot someone in the head and hand but can't aim for the foot one square away.

Posted by: @sirlocke

 

Approach Mechanics

One of the most universally frustrating mechanics right now, especially noticeable in modern hunting areas that have large and/or constant spawns of enemies, is the approach mechanic combined with NPC's not being on synchronized timers, making it extremely difficult for any combatant that doesn't have a full long-range moveset. The current system creates a lot of frustration when either trying to engage/target specific enemies, or retreat away from a fight. You can especially see this in action if you have 3+ close range combatants trying to hunt, say, Kelestian groups. It's an absolute nightmare to try and keep up with who's engaged on whom. I don't think the entire wheel needs to be reinvented to address this, though; instead, I'd propose two new CM moves, detailed below.

Reposition - Requires some number of ranks in fall back. Syntax: reposition <target> Effect: In one swift movement, you disengage from all currently engaged targets and engage a new target. Low ranks can create openings or even cause you to fumble and fall to the ground in a clumsy effort, with higher ranks eliminating the chance of either of those happening. Should be treated as an offensive maneuver, gaining higher rank bonus the more aggressive your stance.

Guarded Retreat - Requires some number of ranks in both Feint Awareness and Fall Back. Syntax: passive Effect: Training in this maneuver reduces the size of opening you create when using the normal "retreat" command, including when retreating in a specific direction. Against PvE targets, can completely eliminate the openings when fully trained. Against other players, will still always leave some level of opening.

 

This. Please fix the approach mechanics. If not, just restore drunk approach and call it a day. Not being able to navigate giant swarms makes no sense. 

Posted by: @sgexplosion

On that note I'm sorry but I don't think we will be seeing three or four handed axes as a skill anytime soon!

Of course not. Six handed axes come first.

Tridents:

New aggressive stepping move. Tridents have two defensive stepping moves. It's very awkward and clunky to manually change stances when you don't have an up and a down.

FEINT FEINT FEINT. Please get rid of ranged only feint.

No multi-hitters. Makes Cunning opportunist mandatory which is a hard ask for 4 points.

Catches:

Swinging disarm or the catches themselves should flow how chain blade does where the utility of the grapple is baked into the move itself.

The defensive catch is a very clunky move. You're grappling a weapon while stepping defensively BUT you lose all your weapon blocks because it's a catch. Not very defensive at all.

Foot Pin/Sweep: 

It requires two difficult moves (pin/sweep) and one easy move (swinging disarm) to knock down an opponent with tridents. This is exacerbated by the fact that you have to constantly know if you're approached or retreated when entering the command because you can only pin at close range or sweep at long range. On top of that, if you are foot pinning, you then need to wait til NLB, then either free <weapon> or fling <weapon>. WHILE all this is going on, the opponent can try to free themselves putting you in an even longer roundtime. 

Assuming max speed:

Example 1: I successfully foot pin an opponent with a boison trident and end up in a 4-second round time. I manage to somehow beat them to no longer busy and then have to fling trident to knock them down incurring another 4 second round time. They stand up and stab the hell out of me.

Example 2: I successfully foot pin an opponent with a boison trident and end up in a 4-second round time. They beat me to no longer busy, and free <weapon>. My defenses are gone, I'm given a longer round time, and have to possibly get/wield my weapon. They stab the hell out of me.

Example 3: I go to foot pin the enemy and they've retreated. I have to now type sweep enemy and hope they don't approach before I finish typing.

Comparatively with spears and staves since they're the closest weapon types to tridents the whole process is clunky, awkward and leads to me just using brawling instead to knock someone down.

Honestly, you guys did an amazing job with how chain blades deliver their utility. If we could mimic without cookie cuttering it across all skillsets, that'd ultimately be best.  

Ok first off GREAT JOB with the new weapons and the combat changes released thus far, but I have one small thing bugging me. Why is it all the new weapons so far have really generic killing blow echos? the slitting of throats is pretty bland and shared with too many other weapons.

Chainblade should have a killing blow like the fishing pole killing blow.

Falx should be lopping off heads or gutting people.

Once again that is about the only thing I would like to see change past getting a more skilled trainer.

Aestivan Hoplite Stance could benefit from another look. It's likely doing decently damage wise now with the new shields, but that's not because of any spear skill. Adding some moves that could only be executed in that stance would certainly make it more interesting to play.

While the changes to knives were definitely a step in the right direction, they still need some love.  Knives damage compared to most is still lacking, they no longer have the speed advantage and have had their crit rate nerfed.  Knife players are having to gimp their defense in order to use slashing block.  While I like the fact that there are different mechanics built into knives such as the forehand/backhand it just feels like an extra step that no other weapon has to still be out dps'd.

My suggestions for knives are as follows:

-release retalq dirks (As a means to increase damage via weapon)

-reduce roundtime for boison daggers

-Make slashing block an easy move

-Unnerf the crit rate/quality for knives.  

-Release the currently unrelease knife moves that are currently in the game...ie - knife low block, CKF Heavy chop, CKF Diving stab, CKF knee stab

There have been several @feedbacks and rumors floating around that knives damage is worse than before. See below and make up your own mind. These are from a character with Outstanding strength. It looks even better with a boison dagger.

[Success: 5, Roll: 96] You slash horizontally at a thug with the tip of your retalq dagger. He suffers a devastating cut to his waist.

[Success: 5, Roll: 84] Tightly gripping your retalq dagger, you make a quick underhand stab aimed at a thug! He suffers a severe puncture to his right thigh.

[Success: 5, Roll: 90] You take a step back. You grip your blade tightly and begin a spinning motion, slashing at a thug. You successfully twirl your entire body, striking twice! He suffers a severe cut to his right thigh. He suffers a deep cut to his left thigh.

[Success: 5, Roll: 78] You tightly grip your retalq dagger. Stepping towards a thug, you then lunge a stab at him and strike. You then move your rear foot forward and pivot on it, spinning your whole body as your retalq dagger cuts across a thug in a follow-up slash! He suffers a severe cut to his waist. He suffers a deep cut to his right thigh.

[Success: 5, Roll: 93] You step forward with your rear foot, bringing a retalq dagger back across a thug in a heavy backhanded slash. He suffers a devastating cut to his waist.

[Success: 5, Roll: 75] You pivot slightly, sending a quick punch at a thug. You then quickly draw the blade of a retalq dagger back across his body in a dangerous slash. He suffers a major bruise to his right thigh. He suffers a deep cut to his right thigh.

[Success: 5, Roll: 72] In a dazzling blur of movement, you grip your retalq dagger tightly and slash at a thug! Your hand quickly darts your blade across a thug in a follow-up slash! You then manage to revolve completely, thrusting your blade into a thug in a final strike! He suffers a severe cut to his right thigh. He suffers a deep cut to his left thigh. He suffers a deep cut to his left thigh.

[Success: 9, Roll: 63] You step towards a thug with your retalq dagger held high, bringing it across his face in a vicious slash. He suffers a devastating cut to his face. Your retalq dagger slashes a bright crimson line down the chin!

Any chance you would run oha in the same situation to view it's output?

Am I doing something wrong?
Below are attacks with a superior retalq axe. Some are aimed for the face... Granted I do crit a lot. I get that break does less damage against the target. I actually thought it was not possible to get devistating or gaping with retalq.

[Success: 5, Roll: 85] Pivoting on one foot, you keep your arm straight as you turn halfway, landing a vicious blow on a brash Kelestian warrior with your retalq axe. She suffers a
severe puncture to her face.

[Success: 5, Roll: 70] Grasping your retalq axe in one hand tightly, you step forward while lifting it above your head, before striking downwards in a powerful blow aimed at a rugged
Kelestian mountaineer! She suffers a severe puncture to her left shoulder. You hone in on an opening and land another strike! She suffers a severe puncture to her right hand.

[Success: 42, Roll: 99] Grasping your retalq axe in one hand tightly, you step forward while lifting it above your head, before striking downwards in a powerful blow aimed at a rugged
Kelestian mountaineer! She suffers a severe puncture to her neck.

[Success: 26, Roll: 99] Grasping your retalq axe in one hand tightly, you step forward while lifting it above your head, before striking downwards in a powerful blow aimed at a brash
Kelestian warrior! She suffers a severe puncture to her face. You exploit a gap in her defenses, striking again! She suffers a severe puncture to her left arm.

[Success: 5, Roll: 85] You swing your retalq axe in a wide arc, aiming for a rugged Kelestian mountaineer's flank! She suffers a faint wound to her left thigh.

[Success: 5, Roll: 90] You swing your retalq axe in a wide arc, aiming for a rugged Kelestian mountaineer's flank! She suffers a faint wound to her right thigh.

[Success: 26, Roll: 98] You bring down your retalq axe in a chopping motion aimed at a rugged Kelestian mountaineer! She suffers a deep cut to her face.

I honestly am greatful for all the work. I genuinly asking the question about damage.
I am having a blast playing. I don't have to do a lot of damage. Just in case there is something I don't know. I figured I would ask. I've only ever played axe and nelsor.

Forgot to mention 140 strength.

I sis just get a gapper.

[Success: 5, Roll: 89] Grasping your retalq axe in one hand tightly, you step forward while lifting it above your head, before striking downwards in a powerful blow aimed at a tired
-eyed Kelestian servitor! She suffers a gaping wound to her left hand.

For the most part, I think the changes to 2HA are pretty good. There's still the issue of sap being unreliable for its intended purpose, and the hooks not being very viable in PvE, but those aside, there is one thing tied to the changes made I'd like to make a suggestion on:

Up Slash, as discussed in my original post, doesn't really justify its difficulty well. Making it either range does help, but it's still not justified as a difficult skill over hip slash. The damage is very comparable to hip slash, and in my testing, it only has a 7 point accuracy bonus over hip slash (it may be percentage based, 7 points is based purely on my ranks versus an opponent I could reliably test on). The biggest issue is that it's a difficult move that by default goes up against an easy dodge, which is a tough hurdle to get over. My recommendation would be to keep it as difficult, but change it to aim low by default. This would both fit the motion of the maneuver more accurately, and it would put it up against an average dodge by default, which would immediately justify its difficulty compared to hip slash.

Backhand strike, if I remember correctly (it's honestly been a while since I had it in my rotation because I moved all the slashing moves out of my rotations a while back, for the exact reason as Up Slash), already aims at an average dodge by default, so there is precedence for this within the skillset already.

@davewiththenicehat 

Keep in mind that the Kelestians have pretty good armor. Even with 240 strength and a superior + reforged boison 2HA, I get faint wounds on low rolls, which is something I don't see anywhere else. Not sure if the results you were getting were against one of the armored targets or not, but I definitely notice the difference when I come up against one of the armored ones.