OHS- 4 skill sets to match any 2 handed skill set   ( 1 base ohs, cms, style / then shields)  damage, throwing weapons openings 1 ohs- 2 hand nope. a shield should have alot more protection than it currently does.

Avros is a train wreck openings, throwing, forced  thrust should work exactly like any of the round strikes past defenses not a well you missed here's openings every area

Shields- shields need a charge , knee strike, and a sap. 

More to follow after work.

I'll start with some things that universally affect most or even all weapons, and then I'll get into some specific stuff with 2-Handed Axe on a subsequent post since I have the most applicable familiarity with it. I'll try and maintain a format that points out the existing issue(s) with something, and then some ideas to address it.

Approach Mechanics

One of the most universally frustrating mechanics right now, especially noticeable in modern hunting areas that have large and/or constant spawns of enemies, is the approach mechanic combined with NPC's not being on synchronized timers, making it extremely difficult for any combatant that doesn't have a full long-range moveset. The current system creates a lot of frustration when either trying to engage/target specific enemies, or retreat away from a fight. You can especially see this in action if you have 3+ close range combatants trying to hunt, say, Kelestian groups. It's an absolute nightmare to try and keep up with who's engaged on whom. I don't think the entire wheel needs to be reinvented to address this, though; instead, I'd propose two new CM moves, detailed below.

Reposition - Requires some number of ranks in fall back. Syntax: reposition <target> Effect: In one swift movement, you disengage from all currently engaged targets and engage a new target. Low ranks can create openings or even cause you to fumble and fall to the ground in a clumsy effort, with higher ranks eliminating the chance of either of those happening. Should be treated as an offensive maneuver, gaining higher rank bonus the more aggressive your stance.

Guarded Retreat - Requires some number of ranks in both Feint Awareness and Fall Back. Syntax: passive Effect: Training in this maneuver reduces the size of opening you create when using the normal "retreat" command, including when retreating in a specific direction. Against PvE targets, can completely eliminate the openings when fully trained. Against other players, will still always leave some level of opening.

Mechanical Change to Fall Back: Now that weapons which have offensive reasoning for putting distance between them and a target all have access to in-skillset parting attacks, Fall Back should be changed to a defensive maneuver, making it easier to pull off the more defensive your stance. It is primarily used now as a "get away" move, and not a "get back so I can attack at range" move, and making it defensive would fit more thematically and make more mechanical sense.

NPC No-Roundtime Mechanics and Snares

Due to NPC's not having roundtime, many of them make snaring moves not only ineffective, but actually detrimental to use. Quicker NPC's will spam freeing themselves after you snare them, before you even get a chance to attempt your own free/disarm/toss, putting you into a string of roundtime until they manage to free themselves, often resulting in you getting disarmed and being put in an especially long roundtime. To address this, I will be proposing an idea on changing the way Swinging Disarm works in my 2HA post, and I think applying the same idea to other weapons with snares could help address this issue. The fact is that many weapon skillsets are themed and balanced around being able to use snares to make up for either weak defenses or lack of other ways (such as sweeps) to mitigate incoming damage, and those weapons are at a huge disadvantage compared to weapons that do have options like sweeps when it comes to PvE.

2-Handed Axes

I'm certainly not the most ranked and experienced 2HA user, but I am familiar enough with the skillset to provide some feedback on their strengths and weaknesses in PvE. Note, these suggestions are specifically tailored towards PvE; I think PvP balancing overall is an entirely separate discussion, as it is so drastically different from PvE, but also represents less than 1% of actual combat that happens. I'll start with a general idea of what I believe are both the intended and actual strengths of the weapon, and the intended and actual weaknesses of the weapon; following that, I'll provide ideas for either tweaks to existing moves, or new moves altogether.

Strengths

It is very clear that 2-Handed Axes are meant to be the all-out, overwhelming offense weapon, with an intended top tier damage output set back by relatively limited defensive options and tactical aiming options. It should be every berserkers' weapon of choice. And it almost is, but there are some issues holding it back from that. First off, it no longer reigns supreme in the damage output; other weapons, even including shields, can consistently put out comparable or even great damage per attack than a 2HA can. This is something that is easily fixed with numbers tweaking, though.

Weaknesses

2HA remains an extremely inconvenient skillset in the early game to train, due to still not having a trainer in the city proper. It is also lacking a sustainable long range rotation, sitting at a wonky 4-moves plus stepping slash (which, without a defense step [which this weapon should not have] is not a very rotation-friendly skill).

Individual Skills

Arm Hook This skill does not make sense as it is currently implemented, mainly due to it prereqs and difficulty rating. The prereq tiers for the hooks in 2HA are Hook->Ankle Hook->Arm Hook. As a result, the assumption would be that arm hook would at least be more valuable in situations than the other skills. However, it is an utterly worthless skill due to the fact that it is the same difficulty as ankle hook, but targets EASIER defenses without providing any better effect. Even the follow-up is less desirable; ankle hook makes a target prone while arm hook makes a target kneel, and kneeling both provides less to-hit bones than prone, and even provides some weapons with defenses they can still use. I would recommend either changing this move to Average difficulty, or reverse the prereqs so that prereq lineup is Hook->Arm Hook->Ankle Hook, so that the better skill is the end of the chain rather than the weakest of the three skills.

Upslash The motion of this skill feels like it should be a chop rather than a slash mechanically, and having a chop that can be aimed low would give 2HA a real standout skill that it desperately lacks.

Swinging Disarm As mentioned in my previous post, and based on how chainblade snares work, I'd like to propose a mechanics change to moves like Swinging Disarm or similar moves in other weapon skillsets to make them more viable in PvE. Essentially, in addition to them having the manual action when snaring, allow a toggleable passive benefit at a rate of 2 ranks:1 percent chance of occurring, capping at 50%, to automatically perform the disarm skill when successfully hooking a target. Being able to toggle it is important as it can be situationally more beneficial to keep a target snared than disarming/tripping them, but having that auto-use ability would get around the issue of NPC's not having roundtime and making the moves so terrible in PvE.

Sap There is an issue with all weapons that have sap: they can't be used to stun non-humanoid targets. This is not in line with the fact that brawling's headbutt or archery's headshot CAN be used to stun non-humanoids. Just fix that and allow all saps to be able to stun non-humanoids.

Giant's Swing New Skill Proposal; reason: 2HA lacks a reliable way to maintain a long-range move rotation by a single move, and lacks any multi-hitter moves (which makes any weapon that performs multi hit attacks have a substantial damage output advantage over 2HA). Prereqs: Rank 50 Basic Slash, Rank 50 Hip Slash, Rank 50 Stepping Slash. Syntax: gswing <target> (cannot be aimed at a body part, default aims mid, can be aimed high or low) Roundtime: Woodcutter's Slash Roundtime + 1 second Effect: You rear back and swing your axe at your target, using the momentum to carry you in a spinning motion. Similar to knives' triplecut, the move will have an initial single-hit attack with a to-hit penalty based on your basic slash rank, being completely eliminated at rank 100 basic slash. The damage of the initial slash should be comparable to hip slash. You then have a chance for a full rotation, getting a second attack on the target as you come around. The chance of this second attack is driven by your rank in hip slash, reaching 100% at rank 100 hip slash, and should have damage comparable to overhead chop. Lastly, you have a chance for a second rotation, based on your rank in stepping slash and reaching 100% at rank 100 stepping slash, and should have damage comparable to stepping slash.

Avros - 

1) Openings and weapon-tossing have to be eliminated. This is just a no brainer. 

2) A singular ranged attack would be nice, similar to the Flunge (Flying Lunge) fencing maneuver. 

3) A stepping move to a more defensive posture would be nice, but I don't think the set really needs it.

Damage wise, I think the set is fine. It is more of a pin-point attack style, so I don't think it should have big damage. It is more speed and "death by a thousand cuts" style. The crits are good and the small bit of utility it has makes sense. The openings and weapon tossing being eliminated are really the crucial piece. Once that is done, the set will be mid-tier in my opinion.

One-Handed Swords - 

1) Damage should be be turned up on this skillset. It underperforms to the point that it is ONLY viable once you learn a "style"

2) 6 blocks in the skillset is excessive. Combine Round Block and Cross Block into 1 block.

3) A singular ranged move would be good for group fighting.

OHS Styles and CKF - 

Combine the "Stance" into the Basics for each sword style or CKN skillset. It is a rather useless SP sink. The basics SHOULD cover the stance for the associated style considering you are having to learn an entirely separate skillset.

Shields - 

1) A lunge or approach move would be a good addition to the shield skillset. 

2) A defensive stepping move would also make sense for the skillset.

Healing - 

1) Do we REALLY need the extra SP requirement for learning ranks in this now? Seems excessive.

2) I think to help push the combat medic idea, add in a skill that is "Hasty Stitching." Make it more difficult as a maneuver (impossible) and a higher difficulty than regular stitching, but make it a lower roundtime. You could even make it so the stitches will need to remain in longer. 

3) Prognosis skill - Use this on a wound to determine approximately how long until it will heal. It will give you a time frame (rough) for when the wound would normally heal and if stitches or a splint, an estimate on when they should be removed. This would help healers be able to give more accurate advice to patients about rest time. As it is now, those who actually RP being medics can't really tell with any fidelity how long a patient needs to rest. But with this skill, they could say "That break is really bad. You will need to spend at least 5 to 8 hours in the cold baths for speedy recovery. An example of command and response might be:

prognosis right arm - You examine <patient>'s right arm. You assess the bruise will take about 2 hours to heal. You assess the pierce will take about 3 hours to heal. You assess the stitches can be removed in about an hour.

NOTE: This could also be used to assess what ailments are bothering a patient that are not "wound" related. If you type "prognosis" alone, it might tell you if someone is suffering from the various diseases like blood disease, sun sickness, stomach problems, etc. Basically all the things they sell concoctions to cure from the various vendors/herbalists. Think "diagnose" but for everything other than wounds.

 

Approach Mechanics

One of the most universally frustrating mechanics right now, especially noticeable in modern hunting areas that have large and/or constant spawns of enemies, is the approach mechanic combined with NPC's not being on synchronized timers, making it extremely difficult for any combatant that doesn't have a full long-range moveset. The current system creates a lot of frustration when either trying to engage/target specific enemies, or retreat away from a fight. You can especially see this in action if you have 3+ close range combatants trying to hunt, say, Kelestian groups. It's an absolute nightmare to try and keep up with who's engaged on whom. I don't think the entire wheel needs to be reinvented to address this, though; instead, I'd propose two new CM moves, detailed below.

Reposition - Requires some number of ranks in fall back. Syntax: reposition <target> Effect: In one swift movement, you disengage from all currently engaged targets and engage a new target. Low ranks can create openings or even cause you to fumble and fall to the ground in a clumsy effort, with higher ranks eliminating the chance of either of those happening. Should be treated as an offensive maneuver, gaining higher rank bonus the more aggressive your stance.

Guarded Retreat - Requires some number of ranks in both Feint Awareness and Fall Back. Syntax: passive Effect: Training in this maneuver reduces the size of opening you create when using the normal "retreat" command, including when retreating in a specific direction. Against PvE targets, can completely eliminate the openings when fully trained. Against other players, will still always leave some level of opening.

Mechanical Change to Fall Back: Now that weapons which have offensive reasoning for putting distance between them and a target all have access to in-skillset parting attacks, Fall Back should be changed to a defensive maneuver, making it easier to pull off the more defensive your stance. It is primarily used now as a "get away" move, and not a "get back so I can attack at range" move, and making it defensive would fit more thematically and make more mechanical sense.

 

I love these suggestions and support them as well.

Mastery Paths 

At rank 500 you unlock mastery level in any action. This allows you to choose between different emotes for the attacks. The base mechanics (damage/speed/un-aimed target) would remain identical, just the move emote changes. For example, you reach 500 in sword jab and get to choose from something like the following:

• You jab at <target> with your <gladius>
• You make a swift jab at <target> with your <gladius>
• You turn your arm and throw a precision jab at <target> with <gladius>
• You flip your hand and viciously jab at <target> with <gladius>

This would allow for the return of custom moves as additions to this menu without any mechanical difference.

All One-Handed Weapons

Add two attacks to shields, Shield Aggressive Bash and Shield Defensive Bash. In a perfect world, the aggressive bash would be a clone of edge bash but that'd probably be too OP. Might be a good "tentative" change that could be rolled back after monitoring, because one-handed stuff really needs some help offensively.

Knives

Drop the difficulty of slashing block to easy. This eliminated the glaring defensive issues knives have while trying to keep what's arguably their best tactic.

Drop the round time of boison daggers to match every other knife. There's no excuse for a fangstave being faster than a boison dagger.

Apply an even to-hit bonus to forehand/backhand mechanics.

OHS

Remove the openings.

Remove the openings.

Drop the easy base attacks to minimum roundtime.

OHA

Drop roundtimes for at least 4 moves. The atrocious speed makes this set awful.

Add some form of defensive penetration to two moves, dealer's choice.

Clubs

Add some form of defensive penetration to one move. I'd lean to toward crush since it's unblocked low and mid by shields but not by weapons with the proper blocks. That'd be the easiest to balance.

Whips

Remove the range requirements for rake and cslash and feint. Bump up the base damage of scale whips to align closer to iron weapons and allow reforging. We'll ignore the breaking immersion of throwing a whip in a furnace, scouts honor.

Staves

Remove the ability to get three hits with the triple-hitters while using a double mace. This would put them more in line with other weapons for PvE. Change them to do 2 hits at most. Right now a double mace is a 50% increase to kill count.

Tridents

This would be a beautiful set if it had a working feint. Get rid of the range requirement.

Cestus, Unarmed and 2H axes are in a good spot now. They'd serve as good benchmarks for balancing. Both underpowered, but accurate enough to work in a PvP situation. Spears appear to be in the same category but I don't like them so I've never spent much time with one.

Like many others have stated here, and we have mentioned in the past, the openings have got to go.

Or, if they don't go, make it worth it.

Fix the Defenses command. Or explain what it does. Or get rid of it.

Future state I would like to see my Avros Sunrise Block over other blocks since I put the time in training it.

Nice to see some life on these issues.

Thanks for the work.

Oh. Some love to brawling Nose Break and Leg whip.

I'll make a very simple post about this, since I haven't played combat in a few years.

Balance everything to Tridents.

Tridents is pretty balanced, and is meant to be the hardest hitting weapon in the game, compensated for by it's lack of speed.  And it works.

nerf, and buff everything else so that it falls in line with what Tridents does, for that particular weapon.

Ie. knives should be fast, but weak, and able to bypass armor. And cause bleeders. But it should not out dps a trident, nor should it be rendered useless by armor.

Clubs should be fairly hard hitting, but medium speed, and more liable to break bones.

Swords should be basic in all categories, medium damage, speed, crit rate. Basically the human in D&D... Nothing special, but nothing weak.

staves should be the ultimate defensive weapon, but should compensate with having low damage, even with a double mace. With average break chance.

And so on.

The suggested changes to approach mechanics would be warmly received. Trying to escape groups of enemies has always been a woeful pain.

Another universal balancing matter that needs to be looked at with all weapon sets is the difficulty of moves versus usefulness of the move and the difficulty of the defenses they go up again, especially with their default aiming. Looking at the difficulty of the moves in the chainblades skillset, this seems to have been reasonably considered at least from the usefulness of the moves standpoint, all/most of the single-hit moves being easy or average and moves that hit multiple times or have additional effects beyond damage being reserved for difficult (and one mysterious impossible one). This is good; many weapon sets do not have that luxury, and have moves that are more difficult than they have any need to be, ending up as just being garbage move that don't get used beyond early cycle rotations for SP gain. I've always been of the opinion that if a move isn't worth having, it's not worth existing.

I touched on this in my comments about Arm Hook for 2HA in the previous post. I can use another 2HA example of this: Up Slash. Up Slash offers no real benefit over moves in the skillset; it's got average damage, average speed. However, it requires setup, in that it MUST follow a successful slashing maneuver. So it's already got one strike against it. Add to that, its default aim targets an easy dodge, another strike against it there. Now when you take all that into consideration, the fact that it is a difficult move really doesn't make a lot of sense; it doesn't have any real advantages over average moves available, and has a required setup that those average moves do not. Most, if not all, weapon sets have moves that are like this, and I'm sure everyone could speak to specific examples in their individual weapons. Heck, one entire weapon is plagued with this issue: One-Handed Axes has virtually no moves that don't target an easy dodge by default, so using that weapon essentially means you're always giving yourself a 20 point to-hit penalty to aim the move, which makes those average and difficult moves really hard to utilize.

That being said, I still feel that approach mechanics is the number one issue for most players, and I feel like a universal issue like that should probably be prioritized over individual weapon set balances. Heck, it'll even address a lot of the issues people will have with their individual weapons.

Posted by: @gmsenses

Hello! Did you submit a feedback or idea years ago that might have been lost in the shuffle? Do you have more recent ideas that could help add inspiration to the upcoming combat changes? Post them here!

Now that combat revamp is "underway" is this thread meant to be a discussion between players and/or GMs about the direction that combat will be moving in? Where we can align on what "balance" is and understand the overall goal and how you guys will quantify success? Or is this more like us sharing some ideas, most of which we've already done before, and maybe it's relevant and maybe it's not? Right now it kinda just feels like Santa's wishlist where we'll ask for anything and everything and maybe we get it maybe we don't.

I guess what I'm wondering is I've already seen a post about how Pank & 2HA should be the new standard. I rather disagree, but maybe GMs do agree. But what would help to guide the best ideas would be to provide a general sense of what you're aiming to accomplish with "balance". Even ground rules like "We definitely won't be changing Stance bonuses, yada yada" (as an example) would be helpful to know.

Even something as simple as Avros openings. Most would say remove them altogether. I personally think "openings" should have varying % so maybe there is a world with regular openings (that more ranks would negate) that can turn the tide on a fight. But it really depends on what you guys see as "balance".

I like SirLocke's reposition idea. If GMs just feel it is too much. Maybe when you reposition you keep two of the previously approached characters. It could also take 2 round times or lower defenses to the remaining approached enemies for an attack.

If a reposition idea is not acceptable could throwing a weapon not damage to the weapon? Maybe just retalq weapons don't take damage? Because you can't repair them.

Give a throw attack to the skills that totally lack a ranged attack. People would take crushing just so they can throw a hammer. Especially if you did the wind up in the emote.

Shields, 1ha and 1hc need a charge. Even if it were just shield wow that would help.

Shields should offer protection when worn and wielded. It is a 4 foot wall. If they is too much, could manica's be worn when a shield is wielded?

Brawling body slam should work with weapons wielded.

1ha needs to have a speed buff. My character has 190 speed and a retalq axe. Kelestians with bronze and Iron out speed my character. By a concerning amount. I can rarely feint bronze wielders for example.

1ha needs to have a damage bump. Could be just more moves ignore armor.

Add a low and high block for 1ha and 1hc.

Feint needs to work. My character is grand master in feint and either I already have 5 in my attacks or feint's success is 95... Sorry I honestly don't know enough about the skill to offer a useful suggestion. Maybe rather than it creating an opening it offers an attack bonus on your next attack if it is done within 10 seconds? A feint to a location should create an opening somewhere else. Otherwise you are just announcing where you are about to attack.

I am the only one who will say this. I want magic to be an issue. Superstitious fears is a near free trait. What if some enemies on the new battlefield came out with a glowing or burning weapon? It could go out after the first hit or go out when dropped. So you don't have to worry about PCs using the magic item. Just think of a character fighting someone with a burning chain blade. Now that is a fight. It's win win. You get done and your character is just brute for winning or if you lost it is because they used magic. Not your fault.

For oha side strike adjust down the damage and make the move one-handed. In all fairness the skill set has one-handed in the name. I can't think of a situation where wiedling the axe with two hands will be useful.

When someone is using a close range weapon, would it be possible to lessen or remove the chance of a critical attack causing an opponent to disengage?

Really low on the priority list, if the change takes more than 30 minutes. Honestly don't worry about it. oha has a critical that misses and my understanding is other skills do no have a critical miss. If this is the case, could the miss be removed? `[Success: 24, Roll: 61] In a vicious lateral blow, you twist your retalq axe towards a dusty Kelestian mountaineer in a powerful low strike! Critical Hit! The attack bludgeons the ground just beside a dusty Kelestian mountaineer's foot, barely missing.`