Posted by: @archmagi

 

Lets have more murdering criminals, and less corruption in the law enforcement parties.

Let's just have RP, and less intervention from staff. Corruption in law is great RP as long as not everyone does it. Criminals committing murder are a great thing, as long as their motives are reviewed objectively and they aren't just botters with a bone to pick. Actually investigating things is great RP, so let's see more of that rather than the "sit and wait for my arrest target from my superior" that currently seems to happen in one particular org.

Let's remove subjective warrants or, if they are being applied stupidly, let's allow repercussions for that. Not-TheD mentions speaking to someone's superior. Which is great. If that superior is RP'd as not corrupt. However, if that superior doesn't listen, what happens next? I bet you the Island calls for someone wanting to exact revenge well before it escalates to a pk-able offense. So why not review the Island? Bring back the Courts so that Justices can preside of public trials of criminals. If the evidence is flimsy, at least the world will see it.

What are staff trying to hide? Hopefully nothing. And this seems like an extremely easy fix that would certainly even up the playing field (i.e. one side loses their ability for a virtual pk and is brought back having to produce evidence to a playerbase that has grown increasing skeptical of that group and how they conduct themselves).

My ideas in summary below:

- Bring back Courts with PLAYER justices. Have their decisions reviewed by staff, sure. I'm not a big fan of executions unless in the extreme of circumstances, so would be fine if PLAYER justices didn't have the ability to hand this out.

- Remove the Island as a punishment completely. Replace with above.

- Give people methods to take matters in to their own hands. Right now, the four mechanical options are:
       - Comatosing - redundant now that Acolytes can revive.

       - Bone break

       - Tongue Cut - disabled.

       - PK - Can't get to this point unless you've made a point with multiples of the above methods currently and that's if the person you have beef with hasn't had you arrested and sent to the island already.  

There's a reason no one is bothering with these anymore, and it seems to be the consensus that the game has forgotten its roots and lives to serve the white hats. Right now, there is no risk for being a law keeper. Catch bad guy with lots of friends. Send bad guy to island. Sit in the coloseum and bot all day knowing you won't be touched. There's zero follow up RP. Because law keepers don't -have- to RP the follow up as it stands.

- Promote RP. Don't reward bad behavior like that which has been seen recently.

I think I'm done with this thread. Flame away.

"don't reward bad behavior"

(expects rewards for bad behavior)

Being a criminal is the definition of bad behavior.

The law exists to protect people. Criminals exist to harm people. Those who choose to break the law object to being punished for it, but want to be able to harm people without being harmed themselves.

Kill more criminals!

@ioulinus
Right now, there is no risk for being a law keeper. Catch bad guy with lots of friends. Send bad guy to island. Sit in the coloseum and bot all day knowing you won't be touched. There's zero follow up RP. Because law keepers don't -have- to RP the follow up as it stands.

I've had -plenty- of follow-up RP with "bad guys" and other non-constables concerning cases Kyna has worked and some of it has even led to much deeper storylines. I'm not sure where this opinion is even coming from? Perhaps it's been -your- experience that this is the case...but it absolutely has -not- been my experience. I just wanted to make that clear.

Either way...it's pretty obvious that all opinions expressed in this thread are based on IG experiences...which is good and bad both. I tried to bring objectivity to my initial post by making suggestions. Yes, some of you don't agree with me, and that's fine. That's your opinion, too, but I don't see many counter-offers being thrown into the mix. I'd like to see more actual productive back-and-forth discussion with suggestions on how to improve it instead of a list of complaints. Can we please not turn this into the Discord? I'd like to have a place I can actually post without someone deciding to be an asshat.

@kyna

I disagree with your estimate of the jail sentencing and how you think law keepers should be in the game completely. You are blurring IC canon and OOC versions of policing. They aren't the same.

 @archmagi

Playing a 'bad guy' isn't bad behavior. It's RP. Get over yourself.

The constables are untouchable- long have there leaders ignored literally trash actions by constables, IG been informed many many times and get a shrug. 

Kered IG wise may get frustrated with the legion but occly i know if i present an issue with the leader its actually addressed not ignored. I feel completely differently occly about the two orgs. 

I also think the law is completely looked at diffferently by both orgs , one looks at any reason to arrest you pointlessly, the other tries to deal with the law with common sense.

I appericate that

Posted by: @barbarian

I disagree with your estimate of the jail sentencing and how you think law keepers should be in the game completely. You are blurring IC canon and OOC versions of policing. They aren't the same.

Okay, so you disagree. That's fine. So what's your alternative suggestion to sentencing and such?

I would err on the side of fines for a vast majority of non-violent crime. Leave Heavy Larceny in place but bump the limit somewhere toward 20-25 talents so that it's 100% to punish banditry. Would also extend this to minor assault.

Have fines reduced for citizenship. 10%, 25%, or whatever. Citizenship -needs- to matter. This should be a major RP goal.

Vastly change the sentencing for possession of outlawed magical items. It's absurd to be put in time out for days because you forgot to take the tears out of your pack at the PG checkpoints. This should be a fine, and at most an hour or two in time out. If the original intent of the law was for bigger items like holy relics add a minor/major and throw these items into the latter if any still exist. Multiple hits could be referred to the Cult to give all four acolytes one more thing to worry about.

Either do away with or change DtP, Harassment, Impropriety, Conspiracy to Commit a Crime and Public Aggression to a fine. These are the most judgemental of all warrants.

Define concealment of identity better so that there's no confusion about where one should and shouldn't have a plate down. This was recently a thing. It's entirely too open to interpretation now.

Lower the bar for banditry and reduce the penalty. This would be an area where an alternative punishment could be put in place. Loss of the ability to do business in reputable shops and the ability to use banks for a period of time would be an example of an alternative. Further offenses lead to enemy of the Republic designation and an open PK is placed on the character.

Do away with sending folks to Cullaiden. It blows. Give folks an opportunity to get their VC and move on if they've put the time in to be an enemy of the Republic.

Bring back player justices and allow players to ascend to levels currently held by GMs. This would go a long way toward building trust and creating some semblance of a check to heavy-handed staff policies. Let us be the bad guy. I believe we're a mature enough group of people to handle some responsibility.

Make crucifixion a thing, just because it hasn't been done before in TEC.

I enjoy the openness of this thread, here are some modifications and additions to a few solid points in this thread.

Seems like we may want to consider....

1. How do we maximize player role playing through skill diversity?

- Thievery and subtlety skills are built into the game - they exist and characters are meant to play them. Removing thieves/thievery is not an answer....

- Seems like jail time, with no thoughts or activities, only punishes the player (and their engagement with the game world). - Taking the boat to Fran is a pain in part because you can't project thoughts. Imagine a 60 hour sentence - sure, i'll just login next week no point playing the game...

- Toon execution should only be done with consent of the player and be given a VC similar to @chop

- This Island seems like the worst punishment for the player - needs a time limit, activities, and ability for thoughts - keep the RP alive (obviously if there is harassment/bullying/etc there are bans in place for player accounts)

- Organizations (i know is getting looked at) should be ran by players with support/attendance from GMs. Seems like their is a good effort here.

- For constables, what if it was easier to gather evidence? What if clothing fibers/shreds or foot prints were left at the scene of the crime? Not trying to go full NCIS, but how do we limit blindly tagging other as criminals? How do we make that balance more interesting?

- PvP, regardless of how they start or end, should be investigated how to stay fun, exciting ("make you feel dangerous but also safe" - Vince V) and not become harassment or abuse of power.

           - PC Thieves/bandits "negatively" (stealing/attacking) affecting other PC toons is PvP

           - PC Constables "negatively" (warranting/arresting/sending to island) affecting other PC toons is PvP

Food for thought hopefully... 🙂

The reason I have always been drawn to this game was for its potential for conflict.

Back in the day, when I was young, I had to fear my character being beat up if I talked to the wrong guys gal.

Ancient Roman time were scary! 

But fear not, there is quite a bit you can do to avoid conflict, if you so wish.

1: Dont join a conflict based org. Constables, Legio, Gangs, etc.

2: Dont walk the road alone. Hire or ask for a guard to help walk you.

3: Dont hunt alone in dangerous places, if you can not defend yourself.

4: Dont start something with someone bigger and stronger than you, if you dont want them to take action.

Its not terribly difficult to avoid conflict.

You would fear for your own life if you went to a bad neighborhood and walked around alone, your character should feel the same.

Cullaiden absolutely sucks, there's no doubt about it, but if I remember right at one point last year they said they were looking to do away with it anyway. It was in one of those meeting things.

I still think DtP, Harassment, Impropriety, Conspiracy to Commit a Crime, and Public Aggression are absolutely needed.

Concealment 100% needs FULL CLARIFICATION on what is and is not acceptable. The problem isn't so much that it's illegal. The problem is that different people interpret it differently depending on which written version they're reading of the law. So yes. Please, please, get both constables AND Legio a full clarification on this so that there's no more back-and-forth from anyone. PLEASE!

Please, please, please get Constables and Legio on the same page with their interpretations of the law, too. I know that Legio and Constables deal with different laws because, for example, Legio probably hasn't dealt someone spray painting bank walls while the constables have. However, the interpretations of them should still be identical. For some reason I don't think they are, and that might be because the laws are so outdated that each organization has had to make updated interpretations of their own.

I do think bringing back the justices is a really bad idea based on everything I've heard about the entire thing to begin with. It was bloated, complicated, caused a lot of problems, even more paperwork from everyone involved, and caused a hell of a lot of headaches based on what I've been able to discern.

I would absolutely kill to be able to see footprints from thieves, pick up fibers, examine them in-game...but technologically most forensic sciences don't fit the era of TEC. Some do, like following footprints, but I'm not really sure how you'd code that...or if it would even be worth it by TEC's coders..to do it. I would love to see it, though!

I've posted/submitted my thoughts on some baseline tweaks elsewhere, but I'll summarize for here, again.

- Tweaks to the value of citizenship. Recognition/discount at shops. Some of this seems to be somewhat implemented with the new registration mechanic. Increase of the cost of Citizenship in the VC, and perhaps a non-patrician/service route towards gaining Citizenship, which might includes things such as letters of recommendation from reputable citizens, substantial monetary donations, community outreach work, etc.

- Alternate and tweaked methods of punishment, such as revocation of citizenship, banishment from the capital for repeat offenders, branding on hands and foreheads, and arena enslavement.

- Bonebreaks at reduced (or free) costs for criminal orgs in their own territories, with similar oversight for abuse as lawkeeper org members using warrants. If abused, or used for personal reasons rather than org principles, it can be suspended or removed from the member, or org itself.

- Expanded areas for jail cells - General Population and Solitary. Thoughts would be allowed but heavily drain fatigue in genpop.

- Tweaks to the fencing shop.

- Introduction of new types of balanced, consumable contraband, attainable largely through criminal avenues.

- A bonus to stealthy actions from wearing hooded cloaks.

- 25% reduction of fees and jailtime for citizens.

- A reduction of jailtime for being awake in the cells.

- Tweaks across the board to the warrant table, (submitted by @feedback/suggestion to GMs, because it's really long) and explanations of each, which includes a substantial decrease of jailtime for tears - but also an increase of jailtime for more serious crimes. An increase in fees to create more of a money sink rather than a time sink as a result of arrest penalties.

- A codex of laws accessible at the Library, help files, and, of course the Wiki.

- On the OOC end: More accessible and fully fleshed out OOC policies as to what PVP really is. What criteria PK tickets and tongue cuts require. What "lawkeepers enforcing laws isn't PK justification until it steps outside of X zone" really means, and real examples. OOC rules about IG kidnapping (previous GMs have no-noed this option, because folks were leaving victims trapped without end.) Guidelines about what grieving is versus what PvP is. 

- A better adherence to Steps lore. By rather explicit and illustrative lore ( http://eternal-city.wikidot.com/the-steps) the Steps Station XI is manned by NPCs - the Station is not "empty." This Station is, supposedly, in cahoots with the local gangs, but placeholds the seat of jurisdiction over law enforcement of this area, and chooses not to enforce anything. It is frowned up for law enforcement from other areas to butt in. This seat is taken. Laws and jurisdiction over the Steps DO exist, but local agreement is to look the other way. Play along, or get out of the Steps.

------------

Unfortunately, I've had a very hard time reading this thread because I feel various posters are lacking a baseline understanding of what "balanced conflict RP" looks like. What are the goals we are truly trying to accomplish? What do you all see as "balanced" opportunities?

I am very much not liking a lot of "I want to be able to win with less consequences possible against me" suggestions. 

What are your priorities? (Your own goals, or others' enjoyment?) Do we want an expansion of PVP or PVE avenues? Do we think players were driven away by griefing, boredom, both, neither, something else? What does expanded PVP crime, while balancing against griefing, look like? 

To all of the folks posting from criminal character perspectives: What would be an ideal criminal opportunity and list of potential outcomes and potential consequences? 

To all the folks posting from lawkeeper perspectives: What do you see as an ideal scenario of investigating and catching a criminal, and what do you think potential outcomes and potential consequences should be, for you? 

This is one for Siddhe...

I have some feedback I'd like to send through or even post here, but I think the following question needs to be answered before I do. I figured I'd ask here, because I think there are a lot of interested parties.

"Are characters in law organisations putting themselves in a PvP situation (instigating it, even) if they arrest a PC within their jurisdiction and for a crime the PC criminal -has- committed?

Example: A PC Constable sees a PC Thief quick-grabbing shovels from an NPC. If the PC Constable warrants the PC Thief for theft, is that PVP instigation?"

I'm not talking about frivolous charges open to interpretation in the above, nor warranting people for crimes committed outside jurisdictions (because I would think those kinds would be considered PvP instigation). Just a PC lawkeeper doing the task their organisation charter has them sign up for. Or is the above situation open to GM interpretation depending on the situation?

@ioulinus Are you equating "PVP instigation" with "the slow road towards PK/tongue cut ticket justification"?

Posted by: @not-thed

@ioulinus Are you equating "PVP instigation" with "the slow road towards PK/tongue cut ticket justification"?

I'm asking a question. For the record, my personal opinion on the above question I posed would surprise you, if this is what you think. 

I'm just wondering if "doing your senate decreed job" can ultimately cause you to be PK'd if you did it too many times. I don't think it should. But others think it should. I'm interested in Siddhe's opinion.

Posted by: @barbarian

@kyna

 

I disagree with your estimate of the jail sentencing and how you think law keepers should be in the game completely. You are blurring IC canon and OOC versions of policing. They aren't the same.

 @archmagi

Playing a 'bad guy' isn't bad behavior. It's RP. Get over yourself.

Uh, yeah it is, that character is behaving badly.

Doing it for the sake of RP doesn't change the fact that the character is acting against good behavior policies.

I was not at all referring to bad player behavior, like spamming, cheating, or Ddossing the website, or other game rules.

I'm referring to in character behavior, that's breaking the law. Or are you one of those people who think that laws are there to be broken, and those who follow them are behaving badly, and it's the criminals who are in the right, all the time, and are the good guys?